Space-time limitation of the static enlightenment

topic posted Sun, July 2, 2006 - 3:52 AM by  Chandrakanth
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The Truth

There is a basic difference between the static philosophy and moving philosophy, static God and moving God, static science and moving science, static tradition and moving tradition. Basavanna says, “There is destruction for what stands but not for that, which moves”.

Whenever nature gives birth to new wonders in the world, be it in science, religion, tradition or something else it represents a moving character. Nevertheless, this moving character will not stay for a long time because of our own static way of thinking. Whenever the new research emerged in the history of humanity, it has maintained moving character in the beginning, but slowly it has lost the beauty of the moving character because of the orthodox interaction of our own finite mind. But the transformation of moving character to static character occurs only in human mind, not in nature.

In the western world, now there is a spiritual madness to dig all the static philosophies of the ancient history. Some are talking on Tantra, some are talking on Yoga, some are talking on Vastu, some are talking on mediation, some are talking on UFO’s and so on. In fact, they are searching for the static shelter to compensate or to define their own stagnant way of life. Nevertheless, our ancient Sages, Buddha, Krishna, Jesus, Rama, Prophet and other prominent spiritual personalities emerged with moving philosophy; not a static one, but who made it static? Ask yourself! Which philosophy, science, religion, God and tradition you are representing? Is it static or moving one?

Vivekananda says, “Faith not a belief; it is the grasp of the ultimate as illumination”.
posted by:
Chandrakanth
India
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  • Thank you so much for posting this brother Chandra.

    I am reluctant to label myself as following anyone ideology because, I feel to do so limits one's experience, and my experience most certainly is fluid and alive with poetry.

    in service,

    monk-ee
    • What meaning we are adding to our experience is more important than the experience itself. Isn't it, my brother? In reality, we are the slaves of the known and known is the slave of past and past is the slave of experience. Finally, it is the experience (the known) that is preventing us master the unknown. This is an absolute Truth.

      Message from Chandra with infinite spiritual love
      • Re: Space-time limitation of the static enlightenment

        Mon, September 11, 2006 - 3:14 AM
        I think this may relate to the concept:


        "The seven categories of Janian logic [of ancient India] ... are as follows:
        Maybe it is.
        Maybe it is not.
        Maybe it is, it is not.
        Maybe it is indeterminate.
        Maybe it is and also indeterminate.
        Maybe it is not and also indeterminate.
        Maybe it is and it is not and also indeterminate.
        Janian logic assumes that the complexity of the world is unlimited, and that parts of it are always changing. Nothing we say about it at any given moment is entirely true."

        Your statement -

        "Finally, it is the experience (the known) that is preventing us master the unknown."

        assumes that experience is interpreted in one way and is static - almost as though it becomes hard wired. It is possible to have knowledge in a perpetual state of uncertainty, neither fully accepted nor fully rejected. Secondly, the value of knowledge is intimately related to context. An artists knowledge of pigments does not limit his artistic expression but enhances it. Knowledge and experience also exist that deal with change and adaptation - this does not fit neatly within the definition.

        I think it is less knowledge as content then the aesthetic need for people to have some certainty in their lives and what they know of the world. Certainty is an illusion and it is this illusion that creates slavery to specific ideas, &cet. The illusion of stability is encouraged by institutionalizing a belief system which is probably why the dynamic is lost. If this is human nature there would be no exceptions, but there are - you listed them. There is hope that this particular trap is not for everyone and that not everyone need be shackled by their experience.

        A key to understanding can be found in considering the guidance of Sidhartha's teacher.

        Zifra
      • Re: Space-time limitation of the static enlightenment

        Mon, September 11, 2006 - 6:46 PM
        To derive a meaning from experience is to rationalize the experiential yet, the meaning can only be found in your experience of living. It is inherent to your experience and unique to you.

        Know nothing and be open to eveything.
        • Re: Space-time limitation of the static enlightenment

          Tue, September 12, 2006 - 10:21 PM
          What meaning we are adding to our experience is more than the experience itself. Experience itself is limited to the ego of the known.
          • Re: Space-time limitation of the static enlightenment

            Wed, September 13, 2006 - 1:23 AM
            While a bit limiting, I think Michael is on the right track. Much of our knowledge is acquired from others. It takes a great deal of skepticism to sort that which is yours from that which is accepted as "truth". The missing factor is the influence of being an individual unconstrained by social patterns, accepted norms and structured teaching. There is the road less travelled and also the option of using no road at all.

            I disagree with is the "unique to you" part. There is very little in the way of human thought that is unique. Chances of a particular meaning being unique: One in about 6.5 billion. Not good odds. Considering phenomena like zeitgeist the odds are much smaller - there is more similarity than difference in the meanings we attach to things.

            Meaning as rationalization is, at best, a small subset of over all experience. We can assume that all of us have similar limitations in our ability to percieve. Those limitations tend to frame our interpretation of that experience and lead to similar responses. In most instances the experience-meaning link is unimportant, even when personal. A close call with a serving of brocolli may have meaning to an individual (they like or dislike it) but is of little consequence in spiritual/intellectual/emotional growth. The crux of the problem is that "meaning" has been fabricated, homogenized, de-personalized and accepted by the majority of the humans on this earth and the "experience" is more often than not vicarious and, at best, is filtered by that which is accepted, politically correct, considered "normal" or has been fashioned by their particular conduit to a higher being.


            "Experience itself is limited to the ego of the known."

            I'm not sure how to interpret this statement. I guess I have not encountered a known with an ego as a point of comparison. The over all concept does not seem correct to me however. We know next to nothing when we enter this world and if the statement is correct we would have the same knowledge now as we did then - there would be no opportunity to gain experience if it was limited by the knowledge we could gain from experience. I think, rather, that experience happens and it is only in our interpretation of it that it becomes limited. So, the statement might be both true and false. The more experience we have, the less some of us are capable of experiencing - maybe we just become jaded. That some individuals become ossified does not mean that all individuals become incapable of looking at the world in new ways.

            The initial question about the relationship between space-time and static/dynamic enlightenment is really one of perception. Again, our perception is limited by our senses, at least while we are in a conscious state and insist on a consistent reality. This is not true of everyone and some routinely step into the unknown - the most common example is the artist - and others are not limited by constructs that pass for reality.

            The issue is not really whether people opt for a static or dynamic approach to philosophy/enlightenment but what effect that has on the world. For those who are dynamic the static folks are messing things up pretty good and that is a problem. Being static cannot be blamed for that. Having a bad god might - and by that I mean that it might not be so messed up if the values the "statics" chose was less destructive and more in tune with natural systems. I think the Jane's beliefs are pretty static but they do little harm.

            Out of 6.5 billion people, how many do you figure have the least interest in the "unknown", enlightenment and/or reaching a higher state of being? This is pretty critical because if we expect enlightenment to be a cure for the worlds ills we are all dead meat. It is probably more practical to design a primrose path that is more earth freindly. It is likely that a path utterly static and probably false would be more easily accepted than the discipline involved in becoming dynamic.

            I think one step that should be considered is to step away from spinning profun ditties and get more into the Tao of beer and NFL football.


            Zifra
            • Re: Space-time limitation of the static enlightenment

              Thu, September 14, 2006 - 1:55 PM
              What I mean is that our experience is our truth. How we experience life defines our truth--the ideas we encounter will either be accepted or denied based on the truth of our experience. How do you know "God" exists? By experiencing her.

              Your experience is unique to you. No one else shares your experience. Along our path,we encounter others who see things similarly and connect, based on our experience--what we hold to be true.

              Knowledge is the accumulation of ideas. When we learn, we accept the ideas of others, based on what can be rationalized as truth--what we can comprehend according to the foundation of knowledge that we already hold. We build on what we already know.

              Wisdom can only be gained through one's experience--and not through knowledge. One can be very smart and not very wise. It is the role of the magician to see into the experience of others and communicate with them accordingly so as to get them to see through the beliefs and ideas that limit their experience. It is not the role of the magician to tell people how to think and to blindly accept the magician's truth as their own. This is why Owl is feared--those with Owl medicine can see into the experience of others but, do they manipulate people based on the fears they sense in others or do they use their insight to help people bust through their limitations.

              Know nothing and be open to everything. To know something creates a certainty and if one is certain, there is no alternative option, and if there is no other option, then there can be no growth. To be open to everything means that one is always receiving, interpreting, and discerning the ideas they encounter and measuring them against the truth of their experience.

              Because your experience is unique to you--because it is yours, it does not mean someone else's experience is wrong if they don't accept your truth. It is that person's truth at that moment in time. We tend to judge others according to their truth--especially if their truth does not match our own. At that moment in time, it is that person's truth, and they are entitled to it just as you are entitled to your own truth without being told you are wrong.

              There is a place beyond right and wrong.
              I'll meet you there.
              • Re: Space-time limitation of the static enlightenment

                Thu, September 14, 2006 - 2:03 PM
                and I'm not suggesting anyone is saying anyone else is right or wrong...

                An analogy--a student in school studies the ocean--he reads all about it. He learns all that he can based on the textbooks his school decides are the truest lessons that one needs to know the ocean.

                The student graduates thinking he or she knows all that can be known about the ocean based on the books he or she studies from but, can the student truly know the ocean until he or she dives in and experiences it?

                boom shakalaka
                • Re: Space-time limitation of the static enlightenment

                  Thu, September 14, 2006 - 11:41 PM
                  Michael

                  You are preaching to the choir. I know very well what your intention is (was).

                  I went a little beyond that in suggesting that limits of perception make truth unobtainable because our own knowledge, the basis for truth, is based on false data. Using our senses the closest we can get is "Maybe it is". Extrasensory information, dream information, astral information, physical information (that is accessed through dance and trance), meditation and information resulting from a sensitivity to nature (the listening to the wind stuff) is often closer to truth but much less reliable. Our minds are too inventive.

                  The concept of getting 6 billion people to "bust through" is a nobel endeavor but I feel the 6 billion are, for the most part, disinterested because they already have it all figured out. It takes less effort to redirect this than to reverse it. While unlearning is a way to find truth, to those who feel they have found it already it is not only unnecessary but undesireable.

                  I think it is naive to feel that any truth is as good as another. While our respective truths may not be in precise harmony, those differences can be put down to the gray area left in "Maybe it is." The desire to help others break through their illusion, however, presumes they are wrong and need correcting. I have to agree. Much of the world is in the state of "Maybe it is, it is not." We do not have to wrangle about this point because our means of existing is being threatened - the logical bent of this "truth" is to consume all of the earths resources and perish in our own waste products.

                  "It is the role of the magician to see into the experience of others and communicate with them accordingly so as to get them to see through the beliefs and ideas that limit their experience. It is not the role of the magician to tell people how to think and to blindly accept the magician's truth as their own."

                  This is a nice sentiment. A magician is more than that. A magician is also a master of illusion and is not beyond using deception to reach his/her ends. The magician is not necessarily interested in having others accept his/her truth and, aside from initiates and acolytes, does not want others to know that truth. The magician does, however, have an interest in having others believe that whatever magic he/she performs is based on some kind of truth. A difference of knowing and knowing about.

                  I don't know enough about owl medicine to comment. I can take a whack at the use of fear however. Fear does not change belief, it closes it in and makes it stronger and more rigid - Owls must not be very effective if they take this approach. Taking a direct approach and destroying their self-imposed limitations is unlikely to be effective either. The limitations take the form of their truth, because they have it all figured out, and when confronted they hunker down like cornered animals.

                  I am not enthused about trying to guide these people to any truth at all. I figure it's their problem and they are happy with their illusion. I am more interested in how those existing beliefs can be shifted so that a few others will still have a world to find truth in.

                  It is a matter of applying the principle of least energy. The conversion of billions is a high energy approach and makes the assumption that there is enough time to accomplish the task. The effort, as I said, is noble but we don't have a lot of time. The best solution is to do nothing but the task is figure out what nothing to do. Maybe a form of akido could be found to redirect existing belief (or in the case of Xianity, take it back to it's pre-biblical, pre-Roman roots).

                  I don't think the task is hopeless - which is stating the obvious - there are no living Nihilists - but I think it is like Gimli's assessment in Lord of the Rings - "Small chance of success. Certainty of death. What are we waiting for?"

                  My best,


                  Zifra
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Space-time limitation of the static enlightenment

                    Sat, September 16, 2006 - 6:25 PM
                    Hmmm-I'm not really trying to convert anyone. I speak what I see and this will be communicated through my films and this network.

                    I'm a follower of Vedanta--the end of knowledge.
                    • Re: Space-time limitation of the static enlightenment

                      Mon, September 18, 2006 - 12:08 PM
                      The "end of knowledge" sounds much more profound than "the concluding tomes of the Vedas", don't you think?

                      There are some important concepts in the Upanishads that have been used both wisely and poorly. It is a study of not only oceanography but of vulcanology as well - a good starting place since most of Eastern philosophy is derivitive in one form or another.

                      - - -

                      I did not wish to imply that you were becoming a missionary, probably poor word choice, only that seeking to enlighten may be impractical. To me it is a matter of turning a large number of people from the dark side. What they turn to is of little importance. Rather than being concerned with finding the right answers, I would be satisfied in finding the right questions.

                      - - -

                      A small concern is that in the end, the way of the Veda is not much more than a quick fix. Like Chinese food, it doesn't stay long with a restless and inquisitive spirit. It does have the effect of sidelining some of those with an interest in enlightenment, guiding those who might lead on a path of denial. In the trade it is called misdirection.

                      So, if it is your intent to become a swami yourself, it may be a good but impractical thing - otherwise you are looking at becoming wallpaper and immersing yourself in tantric oblivion in the service of another magus. That has been a common pattern and one of the reasons for Buddhism.

                      Interesting stuff and I do get some enjoyment from mixing metaphors with a shovel even though it is off-case.

                      Watch the doughnut, not the hole.


                      Zifra

                      • I wouldn't say I'm bound to the words of another magus. I'm not interested in simply being a follower of other people's ideas. I was living Vedanta before I knew it was called such.

                        what should be understood about the Vedas is that they were invented by the Brahmin as a way of controlling the adivasi--the Black tribals who inhabited from India to Judea. the noble aryans who were not white. They made the Cush into devils and the Pahlavi (Persians) made the whites into devils in return (Zoroastrianism).

                        The Vedas are considered "sacred knowledge" revealled to the Brahmin as God's chosen people--"knowledge" that separated us from nature and tried to control our relationship with her. When Buddha was chased out of India by the Brahmin, he went to Afghanistan--the ancient holy land of the ancestors--Shambala.

                        The Upanishads were crafted by Yogis--the first shamans (shraman) as a retort to the vedas. Vedanta literally means the end of knowledge.
                        • Thank you for the reply. I was concerned by your earlier responses that you were going into never-never land.

                          You did provide some information in this response that I was not aware of. Thank you. I shall look into it further.

                          I did not really think that you could subordinate yourself and that you must certainly be aware of the traps you might be exposed to.

                          It seemed your mind was elsewhere and I was concerned.


                          Zifra
                          • I'm touched by your concern...In the eternal words of Frank Black,

                            "This Monk-ee's gone to Heaven..."

                            The information in my last response is the synopsis of a film I'm developing--but I shouldn't say anymore publically because the walls have ears, yes?

                            In service

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